Jonathan: Hey, everybody, Jonathan Bailor back, and I’ve got to tell you, I’ve recorded a lot of these sessions. This is one that I have been looking uniquely forward to because we have a woman joining us today who I have had the pleasure of working with quite a bit over the past year. Back when we first met we were singing some female pop star together, I can’t remember who it was, maybe it was Carrie Underwood, but we were serenading each other, and then we went for a stroll in downtown Seattle. We’ve had such a great time, and she certainly lives her message of getting vitalized and energized naturally, and she is such a kind spirit, and she is a Harvard trained physician, a New York Times best-selling author, and a wife and mother. So, she doesn’t say this, but I do believe she has a spandex suit with an S on her chest that she wears around underneath her medical clothes.
Dara: You didn’t. Did you just tell everybody about that?
Jonathan: She’s like a female Clark Kent. Dr. Sara Gottfried, welcome to the show.
Sara: Thank you, Jonathan. The pleasure is mine. It is so fun to hang out with you.
Jonathan: Sara, it is always a pleasure. I wanted to bring you on to our Calorie Myth Conference here because you, obviously, with your wonderful book, The Hormone Cure, and I know you have a bunch of work along those lines, that you know, not only empirically, not only through your clinical practice for many decades, and not only personally, just how many more things there are going on than calorie-counting in, and calorie-counting out. So, why do people even think this way anymore?
Sara: Those things need to be kicked to the curb, honestly. It’s one of the reasons why I just fell instantly in love with you, Jonathan, and I know that our spouses are okay with me saying that. I am so glad that you are kicking them to the curb, and I say that in a very loving way. I’m not sure why we got into the mess. I’ve asked Gary Taubes and he would say that it was part of the ridiculousness that came out of World War II and how we became obsessed with fat being the villain, and then that calories are driving the whole story. But the truth is, it’s more complicated, and it’s also simpler. It really comes down to a few major hormones that are running the story, and it’s not that hard to get those hormones to love you up again and to not have it be so hard to lose weight and have the body that you want.
Jonathan: I’m so excited to dig into that with you here, Sara, because I know, specifically, you have a lot of firsthand experience with some of the individuals who are hit hardest by these calorie myths, and those are, specifically, females, often mothers, who have spent quite a bit of time on this planet, have yo-yoed up and down because that’s what they’ve been told to do, and are literally, and this breaks my heart, and this is what set me on this journey when I used to be a trainer, Sara, was that you would have these brilliant women, doctors, like yourself, lawyers, accountants, brilliant people, who are eating 1400 calories a day, exercising a lot, and will literally say, “I swear to God, I’m doing everything I can to shrink myself, in every sense of the word,” which is so sad, and it’s not working. What do we say to those women?
Sara: There are a few things I want to say to them. I want to say that it’s not their fault. I think a lot of women in that situation, and I know what it feels like because I’ve had pretty much every hormone a woman can have, they think in that situation that they are doing something wrong. They’re not restricting enough, or they’re not exercising enough. Or, they go to their doctor and they’ve been told what I was told in my mid 30s. I still remember this because it was so painful. It makes me misty still thinking about it. I was about 25 pounds heavier than I am now when I was in my mid 30s. I had had one kid, and I just couldn’t lose the weight. It was my time in life when I just came up against that brick wall and I could not lose the weight. I went to my doctor and explained what was going on, and he said to me, “You’re a doctor. It’s simple math. Exercise more, eat less.” He even had a [?? 05:04] in his office where he wrote, “It’s simple math: Exercise more, eat less.”
At first I just felt so humiliated, because I felt like he was saying, “What’s wrong with you? Buck to it. Why can’t you handle this?”
And then I realized, “Oh my gosh, he’s wrong. I have a hunch that my problem is hormonal, and he’s not even talking about hormones, he isn’t offering to test them, and millions of women across the country are being told the same thing.
That’s when I realized, I think there’s something up with my hormones, and I checked some of my hormones, and we can talk about some of these hormones that I think really need to be addressed: Cortisol – my cortisol was three times what it should have been. It is that stress hormone that makes you pile on the belly fat and it tends to cause sugar cravings. Insulin – my insulin was too high, my fasting [?? 06:02] was high. My thyroid was low. So, I had to get those fixed, and it wasn’t some gigantic project. I got them fixed within four weeks, and our listeners can do that, too.
Jonathan: Sara, I so appreciate you sharing that story with us, because I know it’s not easy to recount, but therein lies so much hope, because like you said, it’s more complicated, but it’s also very simple, because when we talk about how these hormones can have such a profound effect, I know it’s a little bit silly, but one example I give to people, which helps them understand immediately, and I’m hoping you can take it a little bit deeper into more healthier ways to think of hormones, but this is just illustrative. Everyone kind of gets it that if you just take steroids your body builds muscle. Take steroids, sit on the couch; you will build muscle. So, we all understand the power of hormones, but we seem to forget when it comes to weight regulation. What are some of the key hormones that we need to be thinking about, and then how do we influence them?
Sara: I’m going to drill into the women that are in this particular age group that I was in, my mid 30s, if you are 45, or even after menopause, this is relevant for you, and I see women in their 20s who feel this way, as well. There are a few key hormones you want to pay attention to. When I wrote my book, The Hormone Cure, I focused in on the top seven hormone imbalances that I see in women, and I’ve been taking care of women for 20 years. I would say, if we’re going to make a cast of characters here, I would start with cortisol. We call cortisol the stress hormone. I sometimes joke that it’s like the bad boyfriend hormone, it’s the guy that you dated in high school or college who took you out drinking every night and you knew it was going to blow up in your face at some point, but you indulged it. You indulged your stress. You indulged your cortisol.
First, cortisol is a really important one. I’m going to give you a quick little punch-line here. I find that it is very hard to lose weight and maintain it if you are chronically stressed, if you have the perception of high stress in your body.
Second, I would say, is insulin. Insulin is the traffic cop in the body. It’s the one that, every time you have a cupcake or an avocado, it says, “Okay, you go build up the glycogen stores in the muscle so that she can actually do some burst training and rock her mission.” So, insulin is like a traffic cop, and I feel [?? 08:57] like Jonathan Bailor. It’s like this really buff, smart, hip hormone that is on your team and you want that. Jonathan Bailor is good insulin. That’s my sacred sound bite of the day.
There are many others, I could go on and on and on. Thyroid is really important. I talk about the hormonal Charlie’s Angels in my book, and that is, cortisol, estrogen, thyroid, and for guys I called it the hormonal Three Amigos – cortisol, testosterone and thyroid. And there are some other players here, too, such as leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says, “Darling’, fork down. It’s time to put the fork down. You’re not hungry. You’re feeding something else, probably and emotional pain or stress.”
Those are the main ones I think about. I could go on and on because there are many others like growth hormone, and there are some other minor players that we could bring in, too.
Jonathan: It is so empowering to hear this, not only flattering with your Jonathan Bailor analogy there, but for everyone else. Let’s maybe look at some specific case studies for cortisol and insulin, specifically, so that if we are thinking about calories, we would do one thing, and it would be the rational thing to do, but it would make us fatter, in terms of cortisol production, and the same thing with insulin. For cortisol, I’m going to lead you here a little bit, but I can imagine that waking up early and doing certain forms of traditional exercise would be very beneficial from a caloric balance perspective, but would be terrible from a cortisol perspective.
Sara: Oh, honey, I love where you’re going with this. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I can bring whatever cases you want to illustrate some of these points. I am the easy example, because I did everything wrong, and then finally found the path. When I was in my 30s, when I was sitting in that doctor’s office, and I was 25 pounds overweight, I was like the muffin top, it was becoming a cake top, and I was at that point where I was thinking, “Should I just accept it and buy the fat jeans? Has it come to that?” I never thought it would be so hard to look good in my jeans in my 30s.
What I was doing, in terms of exercise, was running. I’ve always loved running, and I had this type A, over-achiever personality that I imagine our listeners can relate to. I would say, “Unless I’m running four or five miles, it’s not even worth my time.” I would do that four to five times a week, and I had a lot of injuries because I was overweight, and here’s what was happening! I was not losing weight, I felt terrible, I had a hard time sleeping, I was taking coffee every morning just to crank up, and then drinking every night just to try to calm down, and the running was a problem. It was burning calories, but it was raising my cortisol. What I needed was a [?? 12:10] exercise. I needed to do a type of exercise that really got my hormones to be reset again, and it was not a spinning class or running where you’re pushing your [?? 12:24] and you’re just cranking, you know, you just say, “Look at her go.”
So, I stopped running for a while. I actually run again now because I fueled my metabolism and I still love it, but I started doing Pilates, I started practicing yoga, and it made all the difference in terms of my cortisol levels.
Jonathan: That’s just so transformative, Sara, because you can imagine how frustrating it is, because if we do think calories are the queen or the king of the situation here, we can do things which are good in the calorie model, but are literally, it sounds like, counterproductive in the hormonal model.
Sara: Totally, totally. What I’ve learned, and this is not in any textbook, so listen up, this is really important, if you don’t get anything else today. What I learned is that your hormones drive everything in your body. Yes, we’ve got to pay attention to your DNA, we’ve got to figure out the cell-to-soul philosophy that works best for you. There’s [?? 13:33] ability and lots of upstream and downstream controls, but your hormones drive what you’re interested in, [?? 13:41] metabolism. They are the small hinge that swings big doors, and when you’re chasing after the [?? 13:51] most of us find it doesn’t work.
Jonathan: Another example, another case study: Insulin was wonderful on your list, where if the 100-calorie snack-pack is correct, it only has 100 calories, and in fact, it probably has way fewer calories than that avocado, but from an insulin perspective, is that the right way to go?
Sara: Oh, my goodness, those snack-packs. I have to tell you another one of my little vignettes. When I was having so much trouble losing weight after my first kid, I’ve got two kids now, I started going to Weight Watchers. They encourage this kind of snacking. At that point they had a point system, and you would do these 100-calorie snack mixes, or pick what kind of food you wanted to eat as long as you stayed within the calorie range that they wanted you to be in. I would take those little snack packs, and I have an addictive personality, so if something is worth doing, it’s worth overdoing, in my mindset, and it’s very hard for me to control that, and cortisol feeds the whole story.
So, I would have one of those snack-packs, or three, and yes, the idea is that you are restricting your calories, you’ve got your little point controls, you’re moderating, but it doesn’t work that way. When I eat an avocado, it tells my insulin, “Hey, Jonathan Bailor, come on, let’s go burn some fat.” That’s what happens! If I had those snack-packs, or three, instead, the snack packs say to my body, my liver, my DNA, “Hey, Jonathan’s away, he’s on sabbatical, and we’ve got a chance here to store some major fat, so let’s get busy, you know, she can’t wear her jeans, she’s got this party coming up, she’s not going to wear that dress, are you kidding me? Let’s go store some fat.” It’s not pretty.
Jonathan: It’s not. It’s not pretty at all, and I loved what you talked about in terms of almost tricking your body with 100-calorie snack-packs. It reminds me of something my mother used to say to me when I was little. I would ask her, “Mom, I’ve been thinking about this, do you think I should do it or not?” And she said, “Jonathan, you answered your own question.” I would say, “Mom, what do you mean?” She said, “If you have to think about it, the answer is no.” And if we have to take something in such small doses, isn’t that a hint that maybe it’s not the right information to be feeding our bodies in the first place?”
Sara: Totally true. You just described all of functional medicine in one sentence, which is, [?? 16:34] information for the matrix of your body, from your DNA to every breath that you take, and we need to think about the information in that way, not as, “Okay, let’s trick the body by having this 100-calorie snack,” which, oh by the way, probably has genetically modified food and empty calories, and not the kind of information that your DNA most needs.
Jonathan: Sara, with your background in functional medicine, as well as, of course, your top-of-the-line traditional training, I love talking with you about the connection between the brain and the body, and the more emotional side of some of these things, because you can back it up with the science, as well. One of the more nefarious aspects of these calorie myths that I really disdain, and especially for our wonderful, strong females out there, is this idea that your body is wrong, or stupid, or broken, by default, and unless you consciously intervene, it is going to do too much, or going to do it wrong, and we need to consciously monitor and watch ourselves. What are your thoughts on that?
Sara: Well, I think that’s completely wrong. I believe that we are all born with this innate intelligence in our bodies and when things are not working as planned and you’re 25 pounds overweight like I was, or your mood sucks, or you want to go to divorce court for one reason or another, I think what we need to do is take that message and decode it. Because there is something about the innate intelligence of the body that is not coming through, you’re not getting the download. There is something that is in the way, there is something that is obscuring your knowledge and your way of being your best self. So maybe we should get more specific because I think this can get abstract really fast, but I really believe that it is important to get away from masking symptoms. If we are honest, that is really Western health care [?? 18:50] in how to mask symptoms, whether that is someone who can’t sleep and I prescribe them a sleeping pill, I don’t do that anymore, or a woman who has PMS and I was taught to give her the birth control pill, and I now know better. I know better from functional medicine. But I really believe that the body is trying to give us information, and if you’re storing fat, that’s a message that we want to decode. There are a lot of layers to it, I’m not saying that it’s only biology. There are emotional issues there, as well. There are addictive qualities to certain foods, especially sugar, and we need to understand these pieces and how they relate to the symptoms we have.
Jonathan: It sounds like the approach is not to just do less of what is causing the problem, but to look to something more deep inside and take a different approach like, “Don’t touch the stove more gently to make your hand feel better.” Rather, “Don’t touch the stove at all, and listen to your body when it says, “Ouch, the stove is hot, stop doing that.”
Sara: That’s right, and the cool part here is that it’s not like you have to turn yourself into a science experiment, because a lot of this is worked out already. We’ve got Jonathan Bailor with this amazing book, The Calorie Myth. You have gone through thousands and thousands of studies and distilled them so that we don’t have to do it. So hurray for that. We want to find the simplifications. We also want to find what the truths are that come through and are consistent, study after study after study, so that your body deals with that, or the way that your body deals with refined processed carbohydrates versus slow carbs. I think that kind of information is really important to share, and to say that we’ve got to figure out how to be more aligned with the intelligence of the body. It reminds me a little bit of pop psychology, I’ll geek out here just briefly, and look at the work of Martin Zeligman, for instance, and his book, Flourish. Or look the positive psychology movement, this idea that [?? 21:08] good instead of constantly trying to change the bad, or what is not working in the body. That’s the way I figured out a healthier way of getting your hormones reset.
Jonathan: I love it, it’s almost a mindset of abundance. It reminds me of a story I heard of Mother Theresa. She was once asked if she would march against the war in Vietnam, and she said no. And the people were surprised and said, “Really? We thought you would be interested in this.” And she said, “Well, as soon as you have a march for peace, I will be there.” So what are some of these lifestyle choices that have been consistently demonstrated in the scientific literature and that are more of an abundance, what to pursue? What should we be doing?
Sara: Well, honey, you’re going to brainstorm these with me, right? Because I just wrote an entire book about this, which everyone needs to get! [?? 22:03] get this book and oh, seven, when everyone in your universe gets it. Maybe we should start with carbohydrates. Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to come at it in a different way. I’ve been working with people for about 20 years, men and women, and I’m a total dork, so I survey them constantly, and I know that the number one problem that they face is sugar cravings. So, when I think about sugar cravings, instead of going for, “Just stop eating it,” which I think is not helpful at all, that idea of white-knuckling it, I don’t think that’s very helpful.
What I like to do is look at the root cause, and I find that the root cause is usually high cortisol, insulin resistance where your cells become numb to insulin, maybe fasting glucose is too high, or glucose is just spiking up and down too fast, too much, maybe there is leptin resistance, so there is this whole biochemical piece. But the answer is, you change the molecular sex in your body, happening in each hormone receptor. How do you do that? Well, there are so many different ways. You can follow the program that you have, Jonathan. I think that is wildly effective. You can follow Gary Taub’s. You could get through the really thick Good Calories, Bad Calories, or the simpler version; either one would be effective. But all of these basically say the same, which is [?? 23:43] it’s like stop eating the fatty stuff, get up in the morning, have protein, have some eggs, make a protein smoothie, limit the carbohydrates that you have, and if you are having carbohydrates you want them to be the kind of [?? 24:02] that love up your DNA, love up your hormones and the receptors, things like quinoa, that’s one of my [?? 24:11], right? I love quinoa. I love oatmeal, I love oat groats. I think they’re totally cool. That’s a really simple needle-mover, and you probably have other things you want to say to comment about carbohydrates.
Jonathan: Sara, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, “This is not about carbohydrate elimination, it is not about sweets elimination, it is about doing it smarter.” I’m curious, specifically about sugar. Let’s say we are able to take care of some of those underlying causes for our sweet tooth, and maybe it’s genetic, I don’t know. My family, for example, everyone in my family just loves sweets, just loves, loves, loves sweets, and I loved sweets back before I had any stress in my life. So what you do you recommend for individuals who don’t want to poison themselves and don’t want to cause hormonal deregulation, but also, don’t want to give up the sensation of sweet for the rest of their lives.
Sara: Well, a couple of things. First of all, you want to look at the root cause. What’s the root cause of your craving? Is it that you have a setup in your brain, perhaps genetically, that makes you crave that kind of intense sugary experience? And we know that, for a lot of people, sugar can be like crack. It’s very addictive. We have new research showing how addictive it is. A lot of people used to think of sugar as a soft addiction, that it’s not like a chemical like cocaine, crack or meth, yet it is. It is a chemical addiction.
So let’s start there. [?? 25:58]. Once you start to pull back the layers and look at, “Okay, I’ve got an issue with insulin. My fasting insulin is too high, it’s greater than 5, or 7, or whatever your cutoff is, and my fasting sugar in the morning is 105, and that’s a problem, and my cortisol is 30, it’s three times what it should be.” So we start working on the root causes. But I’m also a fan of momentum. So, how do you get some momentum? I like swaps. I like to have foods that really are satisfying and nourishing so that I’m not missing that intense sugary taste. We talked about avocados earlier. Avocadoes are one of my favorite swaps, especially for someone who is trying to stay away from sugar. I also really believe in supplements to kind of help make that bridge. There are some things that can be very effective, like L-glutamine, or even radiola, especially with high cortisol it can help you with sugar cravings. I like tyrosine can be help you focus. I also like dark chocolate. I think dark chocolate would not be my first choice, but if you have someone who is just tasting dark chocolate and not so [??27:14] 80% cacao as a bridge. Those are a few of my favorite swaps, and if you’re planning to talk about sugar substitutes, we could go there, too.
Jonathan: Absolutely, I do want to talk about sugar substitutes, and I want to tell you, do you know what my favorite thing about cacao nibs is?
Sara: Tell me.
Jonathan: Just the word nibs. Don’t you like saying nibs? I want to get a little Boston Terrier and name him Nibs.
Sara: Totally. I love the idea. I need to get a chocolate lab, the name would be appropriate. I love that. Yes, I love cacao nibs, and I have some sitting upstairs. I’m down in my study and I’ve got some upstairs on my island, just out for [?? 27:56] I like them on smoothies. I love chocolate, so I need some chocolate in my life. And here is the cool thing. We know that chocolate lowers your cortisol level, so here’s one of those swaps that I think is super healthy and helps you step away from the cupcake, or the gluten-free item that seems to be a health food, but actually, it could have a lot of sugar or fruit juice or other things that are not good for you.
Jonathan: Sara, I take your earlier point that there are any number of lifestyles which are all really quite similar. At the end of the day I don’t care if you are vegan, vegetarian, Paleo, South Beach, Adkins, it’s don’t eat processed garbage, eat things found in nature, and there is some disagreement. In your clinical experience, and also with some of the cutting edge research I know you are doing for your upcoming books, have you found maybe four individuals who have yo-yoed many times, have had a few children, and have had chronically high stress? It is these things which, in addition to what we’ve just mentioned, until they get these right, or don’t feel hopeless until you’ve also tried “X.” Have you found anything like that?
Sara: Oh, definitely. There are a couple of different types that I see along these lines. For women who are chronically stressed and are struggling with their weight, especially if they’ve had that yo-yo experience, what I often find is that they have food intolerances. Maybe they have a reaction to gluten, they went through a period of high stress, and maybe they have gluten intolerance. Maybe they have antibodies, maybe they don’t. But often I find that it is almost like a gateway food that leads to multiple intolerances. When I was in my 30s, for instance, I found that I was gluten intolerant, I had antibodies to gluten. I [?? 29:56] celiac, but I had bloating and some constipation that would happen. I had a dairy allergy, a dairy intolerance. It’s common for these to go together, and I think that those are two very important foods that you want to remove as part of a modified elimination diet to see if you can get cortisol down, because if you are having a reaction to some of these common foods, intolerances, then it could be [?? 30:22] cortisol in your body. That’s a piece that I think is important.
And then another one is with the thyroid, I find that for many folks who suffer with their thyroid, and we know that we have millions of people who are undiagnosed, even though they are trying to get the doctor to run their labs and look at them the way that I talk about in my book, we want to realize, when it comes to your thyroid, a lot of people, when [?? 30:47], when they have the most common symptoms, like waking, fatigue, hair loss, depression, irritability, mood swings, they go straight to taking a thyroid medication, and I want to just say in this place, it is much more effective if you use food as your medicine. And that’s not me, that’s Hippocrates. Just making sure that you’re getting the copper, zinc and selenium that you need from your food. We need these nutrients and when you are missing certain nutrients, it can cause hormonal problems that lead to weight gain and the yo-yo issue with your bathroom scale.
Jonathan: Sara, that’s absolutely brilliant, and to use an analogy I sometimes use, which is, if we have a broken ankle we can go get crutches and sit in a wheelchair if we’d like, and that will enable us to move around, but why, when we can just first fix our ankle? And it sounds like we should not lose hope, and that your experience for decades, and your formal medical training, as well as more of even from a spiritual side, we absolutely can fix the system, itself, rather than just starving that system.
Sara: That’s right. I had a patient that I saw last week who reminds me of what you’re describing. It was a women who is 42 years old, came to me and said, “Listen, I work really hard. I’m not going to give that up. I’m not going to go to yoga, so please don’t tell me to go to yoga, and I cannot lose [?? 32:28] no matter what I do. So I’m thinking what I’m going to try next is a juice fast. What do you think?” I had to break the bad news to her that I did not think that was a good idea. I know that many people have a good experience with a juice fast, I’m not knocking that. I’m like you, I’m agnostic when it comes to all these different food plans, but I think that to restrict calories, and then start eating in a normal way, or back to business as usual, that is when the problems happen. I think it is so important to have faith and to hold out hope, and to realize, what does science tell us? Why don’t we start with that? What is going on with your biology and how do we hit the reset button and start to change things fast?
Jonathan: I love that, Sara. Well folks, obviously you can tell that Sara is not only just an interpersonal delight, but also a professional delight, as well. She has the steak and she’s got the sizzle, which is wonderful. Sara, your New York Times best-selling book which people can read now is called, The Hormone Cure, correct?
Sara: Yes, I think I have it here somewhere. Here it is. The Hormone Cure.
Jonathan: I love it. Folks who are interested in hearing about this cast of characters which they should be thinking about instead of, or more fairly, in addition to, maybe, calories, they could check out that book. And I know you have a massive amount of videos and resources online, as well. Can you tell us a little bit about how we can heal our hormones with those?
Sara: Oh, definitely. I like presents. Let me just say, one of the best ways to balance your hormones is to rock your oxytocin. Oxytocin is that hormone of love and bonding. It’s one of the reasons why I love Jonathan. Not only does he help my insulin, he helps my oxytocin. I believe in presents, and when you buy my book at thehormonecurebook.com and you submit your receipt, I have lots of presents for you, including some interviews that I did with Danielle LaPorte and Dr. [?? 34:37] Cass and Marci Shimoff. So, yes, we have lots of prizes for you.
Jonathan: And I love this talk of gifts, because really, we have to remember that health is supposed to be healthy and invigorating and vitalizing, right? Is that a good, general take-away for the audiences? Tell me what you think about this, Sara. If what you’re doing to be healthy is making you feel sick, chances are that might not be the right approach.
Sara: This sounds like maybe a corollary of what your mother told you. Yes, I agree with that. I would say, if you’re not having fun, there’s some problem with your hormones and with what you’re putting in your mouth. So, let’s fix it right now. Don’t endure another day of not having fun.
Jonathan: Brilliant. Sara Gottfried, as always, thank you so much for joining us today, and what can we expect next from you? Obviously, The Hormone Cure, New York times best-seller; are you going to do a couple more of those? What’s next?
Sara: My next book that I’m working on right now is going to be released in about a year, and it is a [?? 35:55] philosophies about how to reset your hormones in 21 days, and it is in these 72-hour bursts to fix your seven hormones of metabolism.
Jonathan: It sounds like if folks want to stay up on that and everything else you’re doing, they can just check out your website. Again, remind us that URL.
Sara: It is thehormonecurebook.com.
Jonathan: I love it. Dr. Sara Gottfried, as always, it is an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your time, insight and humor with us today.
Sara: My pleasure. Thanks, Jonathan.