Carrie: Hi everyone, this is Carrie Brown, and I am in the studio with an awful lot of green tea and a very handsome man called Jonathan Bailor.
Jonathan: I am also the green tea provider. I did prepare the green tea for Carrie today.
Carrie: …and you prepared it perfectly. It still tasted nasty, but you prepared it perfectly, and I thank you.
Jonathan: I prepared it with alacrity.
Carrie: Of course, you did Jonathan.
Jonathan: That is my word for the day. I am going to see how many times I can use the word alacrity in today’s show.
Carrie: What are we talking about?
Jonathan: Today, we are going to talk about one of your favorite subjects, Carrie, and that is…
Jonathan: Actually yes, dietary fats. So, many different ways to slice this; we have talked about fat many, many times, and we will talk about it many more times because it is a critical component of our diet and one that is very, very poorly understood. But one of the topics which is not really talked about so much is the role of fat quality in a diet that is incredibly satiating. Now let me explain in brief what I mean Carrie because I know that probably didn’t make too much sense.
Carrie: I just want to know how much bacon I can eat.
Jonathan: I love it, okay. So, when people go SANE, and you have experienced this Carrie, I have experienced this, all of our listeners have experienced this, when we go SANE, we are going to be eating more satisfying food. Calorie for calorie we are going to get fuller faster. And consistently, both in personal experience all of our listeners have experienced this, and clinical studies show it consistently. When you dial up the amount of non-starchy vegetables and nutrient-dense protein and whole food fats you are eating, you will get fuller on fewer calories. So, you will stop eating accidentally on fewer calories.
Jonathan: Okay. So, the reason I bring that up is because it is very important to eat nutrients. Right? Like vitamins, minerals, so on and so forth. And let’s say an example that people have familiarity with is gastrointestinal surgery. So, if someone gets a surgery to reduce the amount of food they can hold in their stomach, we all know it would be extremely important for that person to really maximize the quality of the food they are eating because, like in the surgical case, if you can only eat 800 calories, you better be sure you are getting the most nutrient-dense foods possible because you only have 800 calories to work with.
Carrie: That makes complete sense.
Jonathan: Okay, now let’s just continue that logic right, Carrie? If you are eating non-starchy vegetables, nutrient-dense protein, and whole food fats, you are going to get – and I get emails on this daily where people are like I am just – I am just – I am too full. I cannot eat the amount of food you are telling me to eat. So, it’s almost like you are shrinking your stomach. You are not really shrinking your stomach, but when you think about – for example, when you eat an inSANE diet, this is hypothetical, but it’s based in science. So, it’s inspired by science but made more accessible for the show. A person, 150 pound person that’s inactive eats 3,000 calories of an inSANE diet to get full, okay? That same person, it will be very reasonable for that exact same person, exact same activity level to get as full or fuller on 2,000 calories of a SANE diet. A spontaneous reduction of caloric intake of 1,000 calories has been demonstrated in studies with only increasing the ratio of protein calories and when we go SANE, we are doing way more than that. We are doing fiber, we are doing delightful fats. So, saying that the amount of calories it takes to get you full falls by about a third is a reasonable estimation. Fair?
Jonathan: The reason I bring this up is because sometimes people get confused when we talk about the types of fats we eat and why we recommend them. So, for example – well I love butter and Carrie loves butter, you frequently do not hear or probably never heard me say and probably never will hear me say, I think you should go out of your way – like let’s say you don’t like the taste of butter, which I don’t really know how that could ever happen, but let’s say in this fictional world where people ride around in unicorns and don’t like the taste of butter, you would not – I would not recommend going out of your way to eat butter, whereas I would recommend, even if you don’t like the taste, like Carrie said green tea, I recommend you try to find ways to like the taste of it. Cocoa, coconut, avocado, these kinds of fat, I recommend that people go out of their way to eat them. Why? Because they are so nutrient rich and they are so metabolically healing that if we aren’t intentional with where we get our calories from, it’s very easy for us to not get enough nutrients because where we are getting our calories are so dag-on satisfying, it’s almost like we have had a virtual gastric bypass surgery.
Carrie: Got it.
Jonathan: For example – if you eat, if you were to get 600 calories in your day from butter – like eating is a zero-sum game to use in economic term, are you familiar with that term Carrie?
Jonathan: Okay so for listeners who are not familiar with that zero-sum game, it just basically means if you do one thing, you can’t do another thing, right? So if you have – if you get full on 2,000 SANE calories, completely satisfied, filled to the tiptop, don’t want anything else and in fact eating anything else would make you feel uncomfortable, you don’t want it. If 600 of those calories come from butter, it’s not a bad thing, but it just means you now only have 1,400 calories to fill with more nutrient-dense sources of fats.
Carrie: More than butter you mean.
Jonathan: More than butter, exactly. So, well butter is in no way, shape, or form bad for you – one of the reasons I say we need to worry about the quality of the fats we are consuming just like we need to worry about the quality of the protein we are consuming and the quality of the carbohydrate we are consuming is because going SANE is so dag-on satisfying, you will get full quickly, and if you get full on 1,000 calories of butter that means you are not eating 1,000 calories of cocoa or coconut or chia or flax or salmon or kale or blueberries or macadamia nuts.
Carrie: Which are just more nutritionally dense than butter.
Jonathan: Exactly and just more metabolically beneficial. Butter isn’t bad for you, like that’s the key takeaway – if eating butter enables you to eat more non-starchy vegetables for example because it makes them taste good, go for it. But sometimes people might ask Jonathan, why would you ever eat just egg whites. And personally, I like the taste of egg whites, and if I had to choose between eating two whole eggs and six egg whites and then some avocado versus eating five whole eggs, you would be way better off eating more by diversity of fats and more – because you get what you need in those two egg yolks, you probably don’t need six egg yolks, not that they are bad for you, but it’s just that remember if you are eating six egg yolks, you will be so full that you can’t eat other healthy sources of fats and it’s just a different way to think about food.
Jonathan: Is that helpful or is that like too economic geeky?
Carrie: No, it was super helpful even for me, and I listen to you talk about this stuff day in day out. You just have a way with words Mr. Bailor.
Jonathan: Well, thank you. I appreciate that Carrie and that’s – just one more time because it was – I have been thinking about this for a really long time and this paradigm really only came into my head recently but just in sum when you go SANE, you will get full on – for a lot of people shockingly few calories, and the other reason for that is for anyone who is suffering with overweight, just because you are not eating calories through your lips doesn’t mean your body doesn’t have calories. It might just be eating calories off of your hips. So, you will also not experience hunger because not only are the calories you are eating extremely satisfying and extremely nutrient-dense, but you are going to create a hormonal environment that will enable your body to consume calories off of your hips instead of only calories that pass through your lips. So, when you realize that going SANE is almost like having a noninvasive and extremely healthy and sustainable form of gastric bypass surgery because it will literally make you make it nearly impossible for you to eat too many calories, it just becomes more and more and more important to focus on the quality of your food. Otherwise you just will not be maximizing the therapeutic effect of your food.
Carrie: Got it.
Jonathan: Speaking of therapy and therapeutic effects, Carrie has some pretty cool news about fat and her diet and awesome progress she has made.
Carrie: Yes, let’s talk about my fats.
Jonathan: Yes, Carrie’s fats.
Carrie: I had my numbers done and by that I mean I had a lipid panel, they took some blood and measured my glucose and LDL and HDL and all that fun stuff, and I came racing over to the studio and showed Mr. Bailor my report card and he said…
Jonathan: …you passed, not only passed, but you got a great score, but Carrie can we give the unedited version of this which is actually how our conversation started?
Jonathan: If you don’t mind.
Jonathan: Can you describe how our conversation started?
Carrie: I came into the studio screaming nearly in tears going the world has ended, my cholesterol is high, my numbers are all over the place, and I am sad.
Jonathan: Yes, and then I was obviously very concerned because I am in the business of trying to help people, such as Carrie, live their best lives based on the best science that’s available. And I was just scratching my head saying how is this possible? Then we found out very quickly. Carrie handed me the piece of paper with her numbers, and this just also shows how pernicious these dogma that is out there are. Because if you look at Carrie’s numbers, they are fabulous, sadly the people who drew her blood took a two-week online certification in the traditional dogma and were told what the science is unequivocally shown is a perfect lipid panel, it was far from that. So, you want to talk about me getting fired up when I see my dear co-host Carrie Brown come in nearly in tears reacting to garbage that’s been fed to her making her think she is doing something wrong or bad when the Journal of the American Medical Association says her panel is perfect. Yes that’s not going to fly.
Carrie: You will know if you have listened to this podcast for any length of time the kind of food I eat when we are talking about – the fats we have been told are bad for us all these years. You know I eat bacon, you know I eat butter, you know I have a splash of heavy cream, you know I eat cheese, and I love cheese, and yet I have a perfect lipid panel.
Jonathan: Let’s talk just briefly about a perfect lipid panel, I am going to plug the work of one of my – just best friends and favorite podcasters and actually the person who led to Carrie and me being here today because he was actually the podcaster who inspired me to get started. I even remember our phone call where I said Jimmy Moore, do you think I could have a podcast too? And he said Jonathan, you absolutely can. And if you haven’t checked out Jimmy’s podcast, he has three of them. Just search for Jimmy Moore and my favorite is Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show. So, check that out, but Jimmy just released a book called Cholesterol Clarity which is a fabulous book that everyone should read and gives you the truth from the research community, not the political dogmatists, on cholesterol. So, the first number here on Carrie’s lipid panel is total cholesterol. So, Carrie what was your total cholesterol?
Jonathan: Now, anyone who has read the Smarter Science of Slim or the upcoming Calorie Myth which may actually be out by the time this airs which is exciting. We know that total cholesterol is just – it’s completely irrelevant. Just ignore your total cholesterol literally because total cholesterol is the summation of your LDL and HDL and you could have for example – if your total cholesterol was 185 and your HDL was 25 and your LDL was 160, your risk of heart disease is actually quite high. Whereas if your total cholesterol – not quite high – it’s very high. If your total cholesterol was 185 and your HDL was 85, you would have almost no chance of getting heart disease. So, when the same measure total cholesterol can for the same number, like you could have the same value and have very little risk for heart disease or you can have very high risk. So, why would we ever use that measure as meaning anything?
Carrie: I don’t know.
Jonathan: But the sad thing and again this is – just again shows how pernicious these myths are, Carrie and I spent all this time together, she has read all the books, but when she was told this by a supposed expert, she came in and said oh my God, Jonathan, my total cholesterol is too high.
Carrie: I did.
Jonathan: It just shows like this is why like – please continue to listen to these podcasts, check out Jimmy Moore’s podcasts because it happens to all of us. We have been so deeply brainwashed that it’s like falling back into old habits, right? It’s like someone who is an alcoholic or addicted to something like you can free yourself from that, but it’s really easy to fall back into it. So, we have to stay militant.
Carrie: Talk about now the – what’s important with the HDL and the LDL?
Jonathan: What’s actually important and we will just scratch the surface here because lots of people go into great detail here, but if you want to look at one thing, the one thing – historically like the old model. Right? The old model of weight was look at your scale and eat less and exercise more and that’s just flawed, like waist circumference is – if you want one measure that’s your measure for that. If you want one measure for heart health, frankly there is no one measure, but the best that closest approximation we can come to is the ratio of your HDL cholesterol, the “good cholesterol,” although that in and of itself is another story. But HDL which is good cholesterol, there is no question, the point I was making is other forms of cholesterol aren’t necessarily bad. HDL and triglycerides, you want to look at the ratio of HDL to triglycerides. The scientific community is fairly unequivocal in saying that if the ratio of your HDL to triglycerides or triglycerides to HDL is 2 meaning that, for example, Carrie’s HDL is 67, her triglycerides are 120. So, if you multiply her HDL by 2, it is basically the same as her triglycerides that means she is awesome like A+. Now if her HDL was 25 and her triglycerides were 200, she has a 4:1 triglyceride to HDL ratio, that would be bad and that indicates high triglycerides, low HDL. So, you want high HDL and low triglycerides, but again you can see the interesting paradox, it might be the wrong word, but I just said you want high HDL. The higher your HDL, the higher your total cholesterol. So, if your goal is to reduce your total cholesterol, you are going to eat starch because starch drops your total cholesterol because it drops your HDL. If the real indicator of heart health is the ratio of HDL to triglyceride where you want triglycerides down and HDL up, the last thing you want to do is lower your total cholesterol.
Carrie: That makes so much sense.
Jonathan: If you want one number – again, the one number you used to look at is the number on your scale. You are already not doing that, hopefully you went out in your backyard, you blew up your scale with a baseball bat and you videotaped that and you shared it on YouTube because we need to free ourselves from that number. The next number you need to free yourself from is total cholesterol. It’s completely irrelevant, the same number can mean literally opposite things depending on the composition of the cholesterol making up that number. The one number – if you want one number is the ratio of HDL to triglycerides and you want your triglycerides to be twice or lower your HDL, makes sense?
Carrie: Makes perfect sense, and it made me very happy when the Bailornator said Carrie, you have a perfect lipid panel.
Jonathan: Perfect, perfect. And the reason we wanted to include this in today’s show is Carrie, when she was originally talking with me and I hadn’t seen her number, she said Jonathan, what can I do to improve my cholesterol, what can I do to improve my cholesterol, what can I do to bring my HDL up? Because she did remember that HDL was a good number, and it’s really the quality of fats folks that help you get that HDL up and those triglycerides down. Different fats do different things with different cholesterol and blood marker indicators. So, when you hear me saying things like go out of your way. Right? There are two different categories, there is it’s okay to eat a.k.a. butter, bacon, pork, fats, ghee, these things are okay to eat, but you are never going to hear me say like hey vegetarian, you really shouldn’t be a vegetarian because you need to eat butter and bacon to be healthy. That’s not true, but I would say to someone who doesn’t eat cocoa, coconut, avocado those types of things or chia seeds, flax seeds, macadamia nuts those fats – olives are so healthy that I want you to go out of your way to eat them. And what you will find since eating is a zero-sum game, and since fats, proteins, and healthy carbohydrates are so satisfying that if you go out of your way to eat the highest quality fats, you just may not have room for the more moderate quality fats and your waist, your hips, your brain, your taste buds and your blood lipid panel will be thankful that you are eating the highest quality fats possible.
Carrie: Love it.
Jonathan: Friends, congratulate Carrie along with me and remember; eat smarter, exercise smarter, and live better. We will chat with you soon.
Carrie: See you.