Carrie: Hello, lovely listeners. This is Carrie Brown and with me, I have Mr. Jonathan Bailor.
Jonathan: What’s up, Carrie? We’re in a studio in a house which is not as hot as last time, but it is still a little warm.
Carrie: It is a little warm.
Jonathan: Before we get on topic, and God forbid we go off-topic in one of these shows…
Jonathan: We started the show, and Carrie had asked me if I went to school at DePaul University, which is a school in Chicago, it has a very good basketball team, people are probably very familiar with it, to which I answered I did not, I went to DePauw University which is in Greencastle, Indiana. But, interestingly enough, I accidently applied to DePaul University, intending to apply to DePauw University, because this was back when I was playing football and I was going to play football for them. They called me and said that they hadn’t received my application. This was after all sorts of craziness, it was the last school I applied to, and it was totally random. I said, “I sent in my application.” They said, “Well, we haven’t gotten it Mr. Bailor.” Then I looked at my application, this was before things were digital, and I had applied to de Paul University. I thought, “Wow, if they are on the fence about whether or not to let me in, the fact that I could not even apply to the right University, probably not a good sign.”
Carrie: That is so not you. Random is not Bailor’s middle name.
Jonathan: That was before SANity.
Carrie: Ah, that’s what it was.
Jonathan: My brain was not functioning well.
Carrie: It was all those cupcakes you were eating. Made you crazy.
Jonathan: It was. It was all those starchy carbs and calorie-counting I was doing at that time. But, I digress. Today, Carrie, we are going to talk about the first meal of the day. I want to have a show all about breakfast.
Carrie: It is my favorite meal of the day.
Jonathan: You have a long history with breakfast, because I think even prior to us meeting each other, you were quite famous for your fondness of breakfast.
Carrie: When I first started my blog it was breakfasts. This was four years ago now. I started something called the Big Breakfast Adventure, and it was, basically, going to breakfast at every breakfast establishment in Seattle, and writing restaurant reviews. That earned me the coveted title of #2 Food Blog in Seattle, and I had a load of fun doing it for two years. And then I met you and it all came to a screeching halt. (laughs)
Jonathan: I ruined everything, it all went away. But I do remember, Carrie, this wasn’t just a passing fancy. You were #2 food blogger in Seattle. It was a very cool thing you had going on. You were blogging at the time. You had the same wonderful spirit that you bring to the SANE show now, which I love. I remember distinctly when we first me and I knew you more in the context of this breakfast food blogger, that one of the things you loved about breakfast was that everyone could enjoy a great breakfast. You could go to the fanciest breakfast spot in the world and for less than $20 you could have the most fancy, amazing breakfast ever.
Carrie: There were several reasons why I chose breakfasts. One of them was selfishly, because it is my favorite meal to eat out. I’m also a morning person. But the fact that a lot more people could afford to go out to eat if the meal was breakfast was a big driver. Because you can go out, you can eat breakfast, it’s not expensive, and then you can get on with the rest of your day, whereas if you do lunch or dinner, it tends to kind of mess the day up. There were lots of reasons, but the budget was definitely one of them.
Jonathan: Breakfast is such an important topic for us to cover, Carrie, because not only is it a meal which we can all very much enjoy, but it actually seems to be the meal which, I think, challenges people the most. From an internet rumor perspective, there are two completely opposite things that have been talked about on the internet, or in the media. One is, breakfast is the most important meal of the day, that’s on one end of the spectrum. The other is, you shouldn’t eat breakfast because fasting is good for you. And they are literally opposite things on top of that, so that’s confusing. On top of that, usually folks, when they are waking up in the morning, they’re busy, they have to get off to work, they have to get their kids ready, they’re just trying to grab and go, they’re trying to do something crazy, so breakfast, I hear more than anything, people asking, “How can I be SANE during breakfast and frankly, should I even eat breakfast? I heard it is the most important meal of the day.” Or, “I heard I shouldn’t do it because I should fast.” What’s the deal with breakfast?
Carrie: Just as an aside, earlier this year, because I missed it so much, I reinvented the Big Breakfast Adventure, so I am going out for breakfast in Seattle, but this time, it is completely SANE. My quest now is to prove to you all that it is perfectly possible to find a delicious SANE breakfast if you are eating out, because a lot of people struggle with how to eat out and stay SANE, so I now do that with a focus on staying SANE, going out for breakfast, and doing that all over again. That’s just a little aside of what happened with that.
Jonathan: Carrie, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to squeeze this in since I’ve been taking so many notes about all the things we could talk about in terms of a SANE breakfast in this one show, but the first thing I want to cover, specifically, now that we’ve hyped up breakfast and people are excited about breakfast.
Carrie: Breakfast is awesome!
Jonathan: Breakfast is awesome. I want to give just a few facts about your biology and your brain when you wake up in the morning and then from those facts we can talk about, should I fast? Is breakfast the most important meal of the day? And what, specifically, should I eat for breakfast to maximize my SANity, to maximize my budget, to maximize my enjoyment? All that good stuff. How does that sound?
Carrie: So, you’re going to do some geeking out in the science department.
Jonathan: A little bit. Geek light. This is not going to be extreme geekiness.
Carrie: But you’re going to give us some science.
Jonathan: A little bit of science, here.
[Note from Jonathan] Wait – pause – interruption from our regularly scheduled show. Friends, it was really, really hot in the studio. I was getting too excited about talking about insulin and what follows. There was a big mistake. I made a mistake. It’s not the first time, it certainly won’t be the last time. I repeatedly, in what follows, say that you are most insulin insensitive, which is just a terrible way to state anything with triple or double negatives, in the morning. That is wrong. You are most insulin sensitive in the morning. I mixed that up in what is about to follow. I got too excited, and I apologize for that.
But the good news is, the point that we make in the few minutes that follow in the show still holds, and that is, forget about worrying about insulin-sensitive or insulin-insensitive, in the technical terms, and yada-yada-yada. What really, really matters and what is correct about what Carrie and I talk about next is that inSANE, insulin spiking, starches and sweets, are uniquely bad for you in the morning. Regardless of my mistakes, the intention, and the point of what Carrie and I are going to talk about next, which is that the worst time of day to consume inSANE starches and sweets, AKA what conventional wisdom tells us to eat for breakfast, is in the morning.
Again, my mistake, and I do apologize for saying that we are most insulin-insensitive in the morning. What I meant to say is, we are most insulin-sensitive in the morning, and the point still stands: InSANity is worst for you in the morning right when you are told by the mainstream media to consume the most inSANE edible products. My apologies, and back to your regularly schedule recording.
Jonathan: The first bit of science to understand is that you probably heard of the hormone, insulin, and how if we overdo it with insulin, we perpetually have high insulin levels, we get diabetes, we become obese. All sorts of bad things happen. It is not that the hormone insulin is bad, any more than the hormone testosterone or estrogen are bad. It is that hormones at improper levels for an improper amount of time are bad. There is no such thing as a bad hormone, there are only bad levels of hormones. However, we are least insulin sensitive in the morning, which means that the worst time of day to spike your insulin levels is in the morning, which is ironic, because if you think about the most sugar and starcharific meal of the day, the most insulin spiking meal of the day, it is, traditionally, breakfast.
Carrie: In America.
Jonathan: In America. And we should talk about that. Big glass of juice, cereal, toast. Somehow that became a balanced breakfast even though it’s 90% carbs, 90% of those carbs come from garbage sources, and you are spiking your insulin levels. That’s not good. What we can say, factually, is that to the extent that spiking insulin levels is bad for you, it is even worse to do that first thing in the morning because your body is least insulin-sensitive. If you move around the internet a little bit you might have heard about carb backloading, or carb days, or people using carbohydrates in the fitness community to supercharge performance. This is usually done in the evening because your body is actually more sensitive to insulin in the evening, so if you were going to do an insulin-spiking, carbohydrate-heavy meal, doing that later in the day is better than earlier in the day. This is also where some of the fasting stuff comes into play. Let’s say everyone is slightly insulin-intolerant in the morning. The idea that you should fast, or that you should eat really just fat, this is the whole butter in your coffee type thing, is because of this lack of insulin sensitivity in the morning. Make sense?
Carrie: It is interesting you bring out the irony back there, I went on a big breakfast adventure on Sunday, and the girlfriend I was with, we were looking at the menu and my comment was, “In America, we truly are starch addicts, “because 85% of the menu was starch. There was SANE stuff we could eat, I’m not saying there was nothing, but when you looked at the menu as a whole, it was staggering. It was just a starch fest.
Jonathan: Sometimes it’s sad, but it’s funny. I don’t know, it’s all kinds of emotions, where literally, you could not construct a more inSANE world, if you tried, than the world we live in, because we now know, bagels are bad for you, not a good idea. But when would a bagel be worst for you?
Carrie: When we typically eat it.
Jonathan: In the morning, which is when we usually eat it. Not only are these “foods” horrible for us, but when we are told to eat them is actually the worst possible time we could ever eat them.
Carrie: And I have to say, I interrupted you just now and said, “In America,” because, traditionally, in Europe, as opposed to England, they typically eat cold meats and cheeses for breakfast. In England we’re kind of big on the cooked breakfast, the bacon and eggs. It’s not necessarily typical the world over, but the starch thing is very American.
Jonathan: And it’s also very modern, because even in America, at the turn of the century, just before the packaged and processed food revolution, the only reason anyone is eating the amount of sugar and starch and trans fats that we are eating is because we’re not eating food, we’re eating these processed products. Before processed products existed, people ate bacon and eggs for breakfast. And then in the 1950s Ancel Keys got up on his pedestal saying saturated fat kills you, which we now know it never did. But, even so, this is very America specific and it’s very, let’s call it, the obesity and diabetes generation specific.
So, what do we do instead? First of all, I didn’t actually answer. Before we get into what you should be eating for breakfast, we kind of covered what you shouldn’t be eating for breakfast, we still haven’t put to rest, should be eating breakfast at all, AKA intermittent fasting? Or, should you definitely eat breakfast because it’s the most important meal of the day? A dichotomy, of sorts.
Carrie: For me, I couldn’t survive until lunchtime. You know the term, “hangry?” Hungry and angry? I would be hangry by 9 o’clock, and sometimes when I go out on my adventures and I meet people and some places just don’t open for breakfast until 10, and I have to have a pre-breakfast breakfast so that I’m not hangry by the time I turn up.
Jonathan: I think you hit the nail on the head there, Carrie, because anyone who ever asks me, “Should I eat breakfast or not? What do you think about fasting?” It’s a bit like saying, “Should I wear the color blue?” Well, I don’t know if you should wear the color blue. What context? I need a little bit more information than that. Breakfast is a function of you, and your specific goals. First and foremost, if not eating breakfast makes you feel like garbage, that’s a good sign that you should be eating breakfast. I would highly recommend you don’t ever listen to anyone or anything that tells you to do something, which – One, there is science on both sides. There is science which suggests that not eating breakfast can have certain benefits. There is also science that suggests that eating breakfast has certain benefits.
For me, the key thing is, it’s not when you eat; it’s what you eat. I think I’ve said this before, and I will continue to say this, which is, you should eat when you’re hungry and you should stop when you are full. If you are not hungry in the morning, I would not recommend artificially feeding yourself. Listen to your body. If you are very hungry, of course, you need to eat a SANE breakfast, and we will talk about what that is in a moment, but there are some instance, specifically, when picking breakfast or not could be biased one way or the other.
Let me give you some specific examples. If you are looking to maximize lean muscle tissue, generally speaking, you want to be triggering muscle protein synthesis versus muscle protein cannibalism, which is when your body is essentially cannibalizing muscle tissue. Anabolism is when it is building muscle tissue. You want to trigger anabolism every 3-4 hours. This is why body builders traditionally eat every 3-4 hours. And they’re not just eating a piece of bread every 3-4 hours, they are eating something with some protein in it, because they want to trigger that muscle protein synthesis. If your goal is lean muscle tissue development or maintenance, when you wake up, you will have been catabolic for a long period of time because, obviously, you haven’t eaten anything.
So, if your goal is lean muscle tissue maintenance and/or development, if that is your primary goal, then consuming a nutrient-dense source of protein in the morning is a good idea. Now, you should always pair nutrient-dense protein with nonstarchy vegetables because if you don’t it is going to be very difficult to eat your nonstarchy vegetable quota for the day. So, for me, getting some form of nutrient-dense protein, along with nonstarchy vegetables, in the morning, if your goal is around lean muscle tissue development or maintenance, is the way to go.
Now, if you are just saying, “Look, I’m trying to burn as much fat as possible. I’m not hungry in the morning. Should I eat breakfast?” I would say there are a couple of tricks you could do. One, if you are not hungry, you shouldn’t be eating in the first place. If you are not hungry, but you remember that Jonathan on that podcast said that I should get some sort of protein in my body or else my muscle tissue is going to waste away and I don’t want that to happen, we’ve talked about the amino acid, leucine. What you can do if you want, and this is not clinical science, this is looking at the clinical studies and extrapolating based upon them.
So, what you could do, if you wanted to, is get some branched-chain amino acids, this is getting a little geeky, but get some branched chain amino acid powder. Or get a very pure form of protein that is very low in calories such as an egg white powder, which is 90% protein. Now, you are going to take in as little energy as possible. If you are taking in branched-chain amino acids, a high dose of leucine with some other amino acids, you are taking in 50 calories, maybe, and if you are taking an egg white protein powder in a 20-30 grams worth of protein dose, that’s going to be pure protein, so you’re looking at sub 150, in terms of calories. So, you’re basically fasting, if you’re taking in that few calories, and if they are all coming from protein, protein is not an energy source, so it’s not like you’re giving your body energy. You are giving your body pure structural component, if that makes sense.
Personally, for me, what I would recommend, is one, if you are hungry, you are eating a SANE breakfast. If you are not hungry, I personally think that for the vast majority of Americans, given that we live in a country where 70% of us are struggling with overweight, which suggests we are a path to metabolic syndrome, we should, basically always, be taking in at least a concentrated source of protein so that we can maintain our lean muscle tissue, and if we are going to do that, we might as well take in some nonstarchy vegetables, as well, so I’m going to vote on the side of, if you are hungry, definitely eat, if you are not hungry, you don’t need to eat, but if you are not hungry and you are concerned about losing lean muscle tissue, or if you don’t eat you’re not going to hit your nonstarchy vegetable quota, then I would recommend doing the [19:16 s/l hack] type breakfast I just described.
Carrie: Another problem I find is that if I don’t eat breakfast, I can’t actually eat enough food, because I wouldn’t more food at lunch and dinner, so actually, a third of my food intake will just go away, and because my appetite isn’t very big, then over the course of the day I’m simply not eating enough food.
Jonathan: And that’s really the key thing. Again, fasting works for some people, there are some benefits to it. If it works for you, I would never advise against it. This might sound a little bit silly, Angela, my wife, and I have a new favorite restaurant. It is an Afghan restaurant, which is just down the street from us. Recently, we were heartbroken because the entire month of July they were just inexplicably closed. Why is this restaurant close? What’s going on? Because there was no explanation. We were angry. We noticed they were open in August and we went in and we said, “Hey, what was the deal in July? Come on.” And they said, “It was Ramadan.” During Ramadan, an entire sect of the world is fasting. They don’t eat from sunup to sundown. I actually asked them, “In Islamic culture, do you see widespread and rapid weight loss during Ramadan? And do you just notice, on the whole, that Ramadan seems to make everyone happier, and that it works really well from a health and fitness perspective?” First of all, they said, “Well, I never thought about that.”
But, if fasting was this miracle cure, there are cultures and religions which fast all the time, and don’t really talk about, “Well, I was struggling with my weight, and I was diabetic, but I’m not that way any more because Ramadan happened.” Fasting has been purported to be this new magical thing that is the cure-all to everything. Look, in the most cynical sense, fasting is a euphemism for starving. It’s just not eating. People are hesitant to say, “Just eat less.” But they are really happy to say, “Fast more.” Fasting more is eating less. If you are fasting, as a euphemism, to eat less, you shouldn’t be doing it. If you are fasting because it makes you feel better, and then when you do eat, you are eating SANE foods, I’m all for it, but please let’s not call starvation dieting something else and say, “Yeah, that’s great, let’s all do it.” The focus has to be not on trying to trick your body into eating less garbage food. It has to be celebrating your body’s ability to take in an abundance of SANE food. For me, skipping meals with no regard for the individual or their goals, sounds a lot like the old school approach, not the modern science approach of abundance and SANity. But that’s just me.
Carrie: And the other thing, and I’m guilty of this, is that we forget that because we are asleep, we are not cognizant of the fact that we are fasting for 10-12 hours. We forget that. If we then fast through the 12 hours that we are awake, that makes it seem a bit crazy thing to do.
Jonathan: This is another anecdotal example. I love to marry the science of common sense because I think it’s a good check. For a while there the “science” said that saturated fat gives you heart disease. But no one said, “Hey, wait a minute, we’ve been eating saturated fat for a really long time, and actually, have eaten more saturated fat, historically, and had lower incidences of heart disease. It didn’t pass the common sense test. I’ve noticed, very common in my parent’s generation, especially among males, both my father and my wife’s father fit in this category where they just don’t really eat during the day. They don’t really eat breakfast, they don’t really eat lunch, and then from 8:00 p.m. at night to 10:00 p.m. at night, they just eat everything. They just go to town. They do that naturally, they’ve done that for years, and that hasn’t yielded dramatic health benefits to them. The only consistent pattern I’ve seen, anecdotally, that results in longterm health, happiness and slimness, is not a function of when you eat, it is simply a function of what you eat. It’s that simple. Simplify it. Don’t make this any more complicated than it needs to be. Eat when you are hungry, stop when you’re full, and when you are hungry eat SANE foods. Don’t let anyone distract you with anything else. What do you think?
Carrie: SANE and simple.
Jonathan: To close, Carrie, we’ve talked about, obviously, for all the people out there that have success with intermittent fasting, again, we are not saying you’re wrong. We’re saying that it’s awesome that it has worked for you, and individuals out there, if you haven’t tried intermittent fasting and it sounds interesting to you and you want to try it and you get great results, I 100% support you in doing that. If you’re not doing that, or you don’t fall in that camp, don’t feel bad, because an abundance of health food is good for you.
To that end, Carrie, let’s close with your go-to options and my go-to options for a SANE, satisfying breakfast for those who choose to eat one.
Carrie: My work week varies from my weekends, so my work week I have a smoothie, and I typically now have my hard core green smoothie, which is basically coconut milk and egg white and spinach.
Jonathan: Nice, nice.
Carrie: On my website there is a whole bunch of recipes for my orange cream sickle, and my strawberry milkshake, which just have some other things added to make them more delicious. But during the week I find that the fastest, SANEst way, and it’s a brilliant way to get veggies in on the run. At the weekends, I tend to go the scramble omelet veggie route. I love eating eggs and I like to cook. Funny. So, that’s what I do on the weekend, I focus on eggs, making a scramble or an omelet with a bunch of veggies in it, and sometimes I’ll add some meat, sausage, bacon, all of that good stuff.
Jonathan: Carrie, you and I are sharing the same sentiment here. I wrote down four categories of foods that I like to enjoy and like to recommend for a SANE breakfast, and two of them are just what you mentioned, and they are a function of how much time you have, I have the least amount of time. An individual who has the least amount of time, like you said, work week smoothie, a green smoothie is the way to go, easy-breezy, done. Do it the night before. Heck, do it on Sundays or Saturdays. Blend them all up for the week, or blend them up four days at a time, and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday done. Wednesday night blend some more, Thursday, Friday done, taken care of. And we’ve covered smoothie recipes in other shows.
Second on the list in terms of time is your wonderful SANE nonstarchy cereal options, because you can pre-make the SANE oatmeal, for lack of better terms, and recipes can be found at carriebrown.com but instead of using something that is corn or flour-based, you are looking at an almond meal or a coconut meal base, delicious cereal, just add a liquid, you’re off to the races. You are probably going to need a green smoothie in addition to that because you need your need your nonstarchy vegetables, but that the middle option, and if you have more time, eggs, nonstarchy vegetables, nutrient-dense protein, easy-breezy. And I love that, too, Carrie, because there are all kinds of different textures in there, there are all kinds of different flavors. We’ve got savory and fatty options. We’ve got more starchy options, we’ve got sweeter options.
The fourth option, which I know Rob Wolf is a big fan of, “How do I go paleo in the morning?” You can just eat food that you would eat for lunch and dinner in the morning. I promise you, I’ve tried this, and I’ve been on the lookout. There are no breakfast police, if you eat a lunch or dinner option at 8:00 a.m. in the morning, no one is going to yell at you, no one is going to scold you. I know that the media and marketing likes to put things into categories for us so that they can sell us more things. May favorite example is men’s and women’s razors. What is the difference between a razor for a man and a razor for a woman?
Carrie: I know, I know.
Jonathan: What’s that?
Carrie: One’s pink.
Jonathan: Exactly. Just like there is no difference between a blade used to cut hair on a woman’s body and a blade used to cut hair on a man’s body, time of day does not dictate whether or not something is SANE or inSANE. It may make it more insane in the case of starch, but don’t worry about eating a piece of salmon and some vegetables for breakfast, or leftovers from the night before. That works, too.
Carrie: That just reminded me of my new favorite breakfast from my Eat Smarter Soups Cookbook, and it’s my creamy onion soup. I had some in the fridge and I was running out the door and I didn’t have time to make my smoothie, so grabbed by dish of onion soup and I took it to work. And what was brilliant about it was that the texture was so like oatmeal. Obviously the flavor wasn’t, but it was warm and had the texture, so I got the comfort of eating oatmeal but all I was eating was vegetables. That’s my new favorite thing for breakfast.
Jonathan: It’s brilliant, Carrie, and I’m happy that we can close on this note, because it’s more of a philosophical note, to the point of, it doesn’t have to be a “breakfast” food for you to eat it for breakfast. If you really step back and think to yourself, why do I think that breakfast foods are breakfast foods? The reason is, generally, they just are. That’s the way it’s always been. Eggs are a breakfast food. But if you find yourself thinking about something and the best reason you can come up with is either that’s what I’ve always done, or that’s what I’ve always been told, that’s a big red flag that this is an area of your life you might want to think more about, because if you think about like any progress that has ever happened in humanity in general, it’s always because someone challenged the idea that “we’ve always done it that way, so we need to keep doing it in the future.” That’s not a good reason. Just because you’ve heard it, or you’ve been taught your whole life to think you need to keep doing it, not a good reason. Take a step back, think about, is it SANE? Does it make you happy? And make that decision for yourself. That was very philosophical and soap-boxy and bringing it down to a more concrete level. You will get to eat a lot more different foods for breakfast, so there you go.
Carrie: Right. And just to mention, if people are wondering where the protein is in my onion soup, what I do now is, I’ll take a dish of nonfat cottage cheese and I’ll eat the cottage cheese and I’ll have my soup, so I’ve got my veggies, I’ve got my protein, it’s all goodness.
Jonathan: But cottage cheese isn’t a breakfast food, Carrie. I’m just kidding! (laughs)
Carrie: The other thing is, in the dairy department, if you’re a fan of dairy, and you want protein in the morning, is our favorite friend, nonfat Greek yogurt.
Jonathan: But really, please just break down those artificial boundaries in your mind, because so much of this complexity isn’t needed, and it is a function of there being these artificial rules. Think about it, complexity comes from complicated rules. You can only eat these foods for breakfast, you can only eat these foods for lunch, and you can only eat these foods for dinner. What? Right. Unnecessary complexity. Simplify. Go SANE. What do you think?
Carrie: I think it’s awesome. It just reminded me, talking about what is typical for breakfast, when I was still living in England one of my favorite things for breakfast is haddock, which is smoked fish, and kippers, completely normal thing to eat in England. Not here, people would say, “Fish for breakfast?” But in England, that was one of my favorite things to do, and it was okay, because that was our culture.
Jonathan: We should try to start a new tradition, Carrie. Listeners, you’ve got to hold us to this if we forget to do this, but I want to start closing every show with an action item. I want people to have an action item. The action item for this week is, you either need to take what you’ve been told is a breakfast food that is SANE, like eggs, and you need to eat it for dinner. I know, crazy! These are not going to be hard, they just have to be baby steps. There are two parts. And, you have to take a food that is “not a breakfast food,” but is SANE, and you have to eat if for breakfast.
Carrie: Just try it.
Jonathan: Yeah. And then just say to yourself, “Oh wow, look, I can do that.” And then you might actually find that there are other areas in your life where you’ve been told you can or can’t do things for your entire life, where if you just take a step back and say, “Hmm. I’m going to try something different,” you open up all sorts of wonderful doors.
I think that’s your assignment for this week, and I wish you good luck.
Carrie: Happy breakfasting!
Jonathan: I love it. Carrie, this is wonderful, it is SANE. And listeners, remember, this week, and every week after, Eat Smarter, Exercise Smarter, and Live Better. And stay SANE. We’ll chat with you soon.
Carrie: See ya.